Yeah, I love that too. I think because at the end of the day, like if you had to if I had to choose who I would rather be, if I would rather be like perpetually negative but authentic or a little toxically positive, I'd probably choose toxic positivity. Like if I if I had to if I had to live in one or the other, I would probably live there because I also think that, you know, as a mindset, I'm I'm going rogue now. I love it. And like, yeah, I would I would 100% choose it for myself if that were an option if I were not just kind of inherently cynical because I do think where you tune your mind is actually you're more likely to create positive things when you are looking for them. I think it is a a coping mechanism that a lot of people use. It's a form of protection. It can be some really serious armor to get you out of situations in your life. um that are just negative and feel hopeless
and I think it's like a temporary strategy, right? It's a temporary strategy that like if there is no depth and there isn't a safe container to
take it slow and like deal with maybe the stuff underneath that. Mhm. That's where I think it becomes like a festering boil, right?
Yeah. Yeah. I like that. I honestly don't know if I had a choice. I feel like my inclination is definitely toward the like quote unquote negative. That's just like my constitution. I would be like the person like the um what do you call it? the hermit in the woods who's just like, "What's going on?" Yeah. Um, but I do see like people who have more of the like I'm going to like pivot my head and focus on the positive. They accomplish a lot. And sometimes I am like personally kind of desirous of that constitution. Yeah. I don't know if they make great art though. Oh, like if you're, you know, if we had to think like would you rather be like trend towards perpetual negativity? I don't know. A lot of artists I think are in that. Oh man, don't even get me started on that. There's so much toxicity doesn't doesn't they just make rainbows and unicorns like there's not going to be deep thriving art possibly. Yeah. People who suffer. But I'm but even you know I'm totally joking but at the same time it is also like there's a vote for really feeling the hard stuff. Yes. How much great art comes from someone grappling with pain and suffering and tough life events. Well, this is I think Oh, sorry. Go for it. This is I think where the the like line breaks down a little bit because I don't I think when you actually are in a space where you're in touch with what you're feeling and you're allowing yourself to feel, it's like life is like more of a spectrum. You can't have true positivity without the dark stuff. just like you can't like love people genuinely without also contending with loss and the reality of loss. So I think like I do think artists can be just as blind to like they can hold on to I guess let's say toxic negativity just as much as toxic positivity and that can blind them as well to like living. So I think it's more about just like an openness to experience the whole range. Yeah. And it's it's so interesting because yeah, like toxic toxic emotions on any side of the spectrum really are like a defense mechanism like they or or an adaptation to like because the alternative as you're describing it is vulnerable, right? To be like, I'm gonna love really hard and know that everyone I love someday will die. I will die just to just to get real deep. Let's go real right to death. These are wine thoughts here, people. Thoughts. But I mean, seriously though, yes, it is that it is that sort of like there's there's two sides to this coin of life. And I think most of us were not given the skills and the freedom to like feel that fluctuating spectrum to like experience it fully because either negativity was too scary or positivity was too scary and I know so many people who like being happy feels scary to them. It's like a terrifying to actually feel. Yeah. It's a very vulnerable thing because it is welcoming. Like if you're truly opening yourself up to it, it is w like life is uncertain. [Â __Â ] happens. You know, unexpected things happen. You lose people you love. They do things you don't expect them to do. Like it's hard and it's vulnerable. That's why we all need baked in. Yeah. to be in our corner to like hold all of that with. Mhm. Okay. I know. I feel like I could talk about this for ages and it feels like we've been focusing a lot in this conversation on when we notice our clients presenting with toxic positivity. But I also think that I feel the need to address coaches y who bring toxic positivity into the coaching relationship and like how like even just in the marketing like I feel like there's a whole thing about coaching that and there are certain like methodologies of coaching that kind of in my opinion maybe I'm getting a little spicy now good I like it but in my opinion sort of have some elements of toxic positivity kind of baked in to them. And so like can we talk about that? Please do. I I would love to know when you're talking about like even the marketing piece, what do you notice that when you see it as you're browsing the internet looking at other coaches stuff? what or maybe maybe how you've been targeted as a client of coaches. What do you see as like that toxic positivity in marketing? What does that look like? Oh, that's a good question. Um, okay. I know that this is effective in marketing, but maybe it's not so effective for me. it's effective. I mean, maybe. But it's it I think it is effective because I think a lot of coaches are very successful. But like even just the like the like very um unnuanced like before and aftermat of like presenting like this is you now and you're like the storm clouds are following you and like the dog poops in your shoe and like everything is terrible and you hate yourself. and then you'll coach with me and you'll come out this like shiny happy person. You'll get everything you ever wanted. And I'm I'm struggling cuz like I don't want to um criticize coaches for like do like getting more people coaching. And I do think that that works. Criticize them. I'm not I'm not offended. Maybe this is this is what our spicy episode. I don't know. Um, but I do think there's something that like baked into that that feels like a denial of the value of where a client the wisdom in where a client is starting at and that actually when that I don't know how to address this in marketing like it feels like a very difficult puzzle to to uncover but when a client has that reinforced that like where I am now is bad and I have to get there to be happy. It makes it harder to coach them to true change because then we have to go through the process of helping them accept where they're at in order to like it's like kind of an ironic Yeah, it's a bait and switch. It's It's sort of a bait and switch. Yeah. I don't know. But that like So I think maybe because I'm so in the sauce, I like smelled that out and I'm kind of like that doesn't seem interesting to me. I don't want that. Yeah. Um, where I see it too is like
when people are like marketing that coaching is only for when you have a problem. Oh yeah. Mhm. And I was talking to somebody about this. They were like, "Well, I don't know if I have like a problem that's big enough to need coaching." And I'm just like, "You don't have to." Like that's the I think that's the marketing issue. I'm like, I don't think you have to be suffering in I'm like, most of my clients are doing great. They're just they just like getting what they wanted to get a little faster than doing it on their own and they like having or having fun or having a creative brain on their team or, you know, not burning out anymore. It's more like Yeah, I think there's like the I think the toxic positivity a lot of times in the marketing is looks like you need me to solve your problems for you. And I think a lot of coaches kind of center themselves. Yeah. As the solution to like to your point the before and after like coach with me and then magically everything will be different in one year. Mhm. I think there is value in coaching and I do know that transformation happens and it's really amazing. But
the toxic posit the toxic part I think is the saying all you have to do is like be my client and denying that sure we have to start where you're at and we also have the person actually has to do the work. It's like just showing up once a week is not going to not going to do it. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And I think that centering the coach is also like another thing that I've that I observe sometimes in the coaching sphere is like marketing by claiming an identity or presenting an identity of like very glossy perfection. Yeah. which like strategic like I I want to leave space for strategy and marketing strategy as well and like positioning of a coach and that's not attractive to me personally as a client and I think the world needs and wants more leaders who are real and who are not like presenting a like perfect I'm shiny I'm happy all the time everything is great nothing to see here veneer there. Yeah, because that I think is the toxic positivity and it the interesting I'm it's so funny that you brings that because I'm working on the next book and I was telling a story. I don't know if it'll be in the book, so who knows? But the story was about we might be getting a maybe story, but I've just been like I kind of write through this process of like sharing the juosition of something and I'm thinking about I was writing about a coach friend who had like a lot more experience than I did, a huge disposable income. She was like just throwing money at her ads and hiring like designers and branding people and getting like photooots and all of this stuff. Um, and then I was like over in my little corner like I'm going to write my blog today. It's so long ago. I'm going to like save up for my photo shoot and you know do my website by myself. This person never got traction in her business. Even though she invested so much, she had no like she had every support, every resource available to her, all the advisers, all the fancy coaches like helping her. I created a situation where my new business, I don't know if I've told you this, but like I was able to create a million dollars over three years. Not in one year but like collectively over three years in a new business without it was totally blew. I was like that is that actually possible? It was like a really interesting thing but I was like why did her business not work though? Because her stuff was so elevated and so pretty and I was looking at it for the as I was writing I'm like oh it's because her whole website is about her. It's about her ideals. It's about how she what she envisions for the world and for herself and how she did this and how she's done that. I'm like there's no not a line about who her clients are, what they need, what's hurting them, what is going on. And I'm like I think that that is where the tide has turned is like maybe three or four years ago people were buying the like if this person has this life then I must work with them so that I can also have this life right like the aspirational marketing I think that that totally worked then now I think people are like there's a million people doing the same thing that you're doing what can you do for me that's different than those people and I think that it's really humbling for probably for people who are like but my dream and my ideas and this program. I spent all this money filming and all of these things. It's like nobody wants it because you didn't ask them what they wanted. Yeah. You just assumed they wanted to be like you, which is a dangerous assumption to make. My blueprint for being like me. Could you imagine buying a program like that? I feel like that's a lot of for being like Aaron. That's a lot of people's strategies. And honestly, like I don't do like I'm not a marketing wizard or anything. Like I wouldn't say I think you're further along in your business as it relates to that. And yeah, like I I think it can be confusing, but I think the takeaway here is like if you want to market in a way that's more real, you don't have to like unleash all of your deepest, darkest vulnerabilities to the audience. You just have to like be curious about what they want and talk about that and be helpful. Yes. To them. If you want to, you can. But like neither do you have to present as like someone who's perfect nor do you have like have to share all of your vulnerable spots with them like like over wide with like probably don't do what we're doing. Probably not. Yes. Do what we say, not what we do. Thank you. But that is like that it is such a good point because
if it's I feel like so my like approach to marketing is like marketing should be a relationship builder between you and your client and that means it has to include the client. So I mean no one would ever buy Aaron's blueprint for being like Aaron. I would I would but I'm not but you know I've never been like a polished like oh here's me in my yacht kind of that's not my style. Um but my style is like I did this thing that was felt very vulnerable and I can help you do anything that feels vulnerable to you. You know, if you want to work with somebody who wrote some books with children in diapers because they did not believe that being a new parent meant that they could not also be a published author. I can help you do something that is of similar thing, but not with my blueprint, right? more with like I've already done this so whatever things you're bringing me I already know they're like it it is a mindset thing it's that idea that Bev always talks about our our one of our mentors Bev Aaron you can never you cannot take someone deeper than you have gone yourself and so I think it's more about like again we're hier the hierarchy of depth but I've gone deep I do I do think that I I am comfortable able having a hierarchy of depth for coaches because I think I and this is where I think we focused on marketing but I think in client sessions I do think unless you're going to get in the habit of referring a client out whenever they need like a sort of emotional support which I think is actually a great healthy option um but unless you have like someone to refer them to whenever things get a little bit deeper I think it is irresponsible as a coach to be uncomfortable with negative emotions to the point that you are privileging positivity in the sessions or you're like trying to coersse your client into feeling better for like personal for your own stuff that you haven't worked through. Yes. And I'm so glad you said that because I was like, oh yeah, we kind of went on the the marketing tangent, but I'm like, why do people do that? It's like, oh, because if you don't get your little if the client doesn't get their like fairy tale ending, then you can't go and reuse their testimonial for your marketing, which I also don't do. I I also really like I have had clients share things on the podcast or some of them have very nicely made videos for me which I did not ask for but were very kind. Um, but I'm like, yeah, I don't like using clients as part of my marketing co. Oh, they're not a cog in my marketing wheel because even though I know social proof is very important, blah blah blah, that will make them part of the business machine instead of purely just a person who I'm helping who gets to share and refer people if they would like to. But I it's my job to be the marketer for my business, not be like extracting little moments so I can say, "Ooh, can you write that up and let me post that on my website with your picture?" No shade to people who share testimonials at all. I think there's appropriate ways to do it, but I just know for me, I do have a marketing brain and it doesn't feel clean for me personally. H I love that you like are modeling what that looks like and like you can everyone can find a way to do it cleanly but you don't have to follow any rules if they don't feel right to you. Yeah. Yeah. Because toxic positivity for coaches can also look like
not coaching anymore and just pushing your clients to get their result by the end of that term because that's what you said. Or like if you're doing I'm not a fan of like guaranteeing programs or packages like if you don't get your goal in 90 days we'll give you your money back. Like that sort of thing puts responsibility for them doing their work on you. Uhhuh. And then how do you coach them in a clean way that's for their development? If you're constantly like, "Oh, tick tock only 15 more days. I don't because your money is wrapped up in their behavior." That Yeah, I agree. That doesn't feel like space. We are not kitchen appliances. We don't need a guarantee. We don't need a a risk-free money back thing. Yeah. For doing work we believe in. Yeah. So, I hope I'm not arrogant in saying this, but like we arrogant the you and I both strike me as people who are have a like particular aptitude for holding space for like the whole range of emotions. For me, I maybe it's like I've been in a lot of therapy. like I've always been interested in quote unquote negative emotions. For me, it feels quite natural to like have a client who's feeling really shitty and not like recoil from that and be like, "Oh, we got to fix that." But I want to also like allow space for people having a range of background. And like that's something that I've always admired about your coaching. I don't know what your personal journey with it has been, but like you strike me as a person who has a capacity to like be down with people feeling a lot of things and that that's not something you like are uncomfortable with. How does one if someone doesn't necessarily have that aptitude like how do they cultivate that? First, I think it's really funny that you're like, "Oh, yes, you just have a natural aptitude." I'm like, "No." Oh, good. Fantastic. I'm so glad it took me it took me so long to figure this out. Um, you know, I used to I used to teach yoga. A lot of times people would have like very interesting emotional experiences in those classes. People would be in shavasana just like balling their eyes out. And I'm like I was always okay with that because I was like, "Oh, this is just energetic release and I don't personally have to like manage it. I'm just checking on the person at the end. like we're good. When Bev actually was the first person that I did the like learning how to coach on deep feelings with. Yeah. And I was just like, I don't know about this day. Like, can I skip this? I'm not here for the feelings. I'm here for the mindset work. I don't want to do feelings. And with on that day, um, she was like, "Well, because you're feeling uncomfortable, let me coach you on something that may be tender for you." And I was like, "Okay." And I'm like, "Totally fine." 2 minutes later, I am publicly crying, which is my worst nightmare, worst fear at the time. Crying in front of all of these people. I'm like, "These people are going to be my colleagues. I'm crying in front of them. This is horrible. Oh my god, they're going to think all these things about me." and she just coached me so beautifully through it. Was okay. It happened like three or four more times over my coaching. It happened in master coach training. I was crying in front of the main person, two of the mentors that I really respected, my entire group, falling in a penthouse, just like ugly crying. And at that point, I was like, you know what? This has happened a few times in coaching where I've c I've cried with my coach, but I've also cried publicly, which is not comfortable. I didn't die. And I'm just going to trust what Bev said, which was you can only take people as deep as you've gone. And I was like, I want to show up. One of those instances was not very safe. Not the one with Bev, but with the other person actually was a little traumatizing. But after that, yeah, I mean I but the thing is I learned from that. I was like, I'm gonna create a different experience for my clients when that comes up. I'm going to make it totally safe for them to feel emotions, do all the things like go through that process process with them. And I love emotional work now. Mhm. But I think it took me being willing to do it and it took me doing it with my own coaches instead of bump spackling over toxic positivity over everything I was feeling. That's so good. Yeah. B on this episode. But it's it's true. Like I would avoid I would avoid it with positivity and I'd say no, it's really okay. I've come to terms with it. I processed it. I'm good. I'm done. and I don't want to talk about it. Mhm. And then I cried publicly and multiple times and didn't die. Exposure therapy.
But I do think that willingness to like be the guinea pig almost on like I think it's really brave and also very um I don't know the word. I want to say like mature but like I don't know. I don't know the word. Um, the wine is gone now. I know the next little sick. Um, I think it is very brave to like be willing to put yourself in exper in experiences that you think your clients might go through. And I think that is something that if if you are a coach, if you do notice yourself wanting to like change how your client feels, if you notice yourself being a little bit uncomfortable with when they express themselves in certain ways, whether that be anger or sadness or despair, any of it, maybe that's an invitation to you to get in touch with that part of yourself, and give yourself some space and put yourself in some experiences where you will be in touch with your own emotions and that can help because I I've seen you coach and I'm like, "Oh yeah, she's really in touch with emotions and she's always been in touch with emotions for the last couple years." Yes. But and I mean I I mean I almost hate to say it because it's like sounds like it's such a plug for coaching, but also it is a plug for coaching because we shouldn't be doing something that we haven't experienced for other people. But I think if if there are parts of yourself that you're ready to explore because you and you know it's going to help you deep in your own coaching like go work with a coach who you trust. Work with a coach who you know can go deep with you who can create safety for you. Go like see what it's like to actually be vulnerable and find those places in yourself. I to your point from earlier I don't think we ever for need to force our clients to like go places they don't want to go but it might be our professional responsibility to have at least explored enough not just in our own personal self coaching but like with another person to receive the good or the bad that that comes from because maybe your coach won't do it perfectly but actually making sure that you're putting yourself in containers where you can relate to the vulnerability of a client. Yes. Beautifully said. Red wine. Red wine. Cheers. People have like a little little snitch. We'll take the last little sip. Yes. Thank you. This was awesome. I realize we haven't like said anything about like where people can find us in many episodes. So, I just wanted to give you a moment to share where people can find you. Thank you. Yeah, I feel like I might have been like a like subconsciously avoiding that because for a while I was not really that open to new clients, but actually I I do feel like I've turned a corner on that and I am now like open for business. So, um business. Yeah. So, you can find me um you can book a consult. Well, I think that's probably the best way to see if it's a good fit to work together. My um full disclosure, probably should not say this, but my um website is like kind of out of date and not like fully representative of where I'm at currently. Um but if anything that I've said resonates with you or if you want are looking for support and digging into this or anything else, you can go to my website at um coachingwith elena.com and book a consult. And you can also find me on Instagram at Elena Mccernin. Yes, make sure to definitely follow her on Instagram because she always has like really great insights. I'm just like, "Oh, damn. She's making these things." So good. Thank you. Okay, now your turn. What's going on in your world? How do people superbound.com is the way to find all the things. I have a podcast called Superbound Podcast, which is a little more businessy. Definitely not as fun as this one. More businessy than drinking alcohol. More business. I don't drink alcohol for that one. Maybe I should. You know, this was a good one.
But you can find everything that I'm up to uh there, including the show notes for this episode and my book. Yay. Awesome. Thanks everyone for listening. It's been fun. Till next time. Bye. Bye.
