Hello. Can we just talk about how nice your hair is? I love your curly hair. Okay, so I got a like special curly hair brush for the shower that like separates the curls and it's magical. I used it for the first time today. I'm like, woo. We need to do a gift guide. We have to talk about all the cool stuff. Fair. Yes. Yeah, I was very skeptical cuz I was like, I don't know, it's just like a brush, but it actually did work. Looks good. Yeah. Listeners, let us know if you want to hear random things that we love. And welcome to the coaching mixer. And welcome to the coaching mixer. I hope you are watching this on YouTube, though, because you have to see Elena's hair. It's so Oh my gosh. Thank you. I like your fuzzy sweater, too. I'm not just um like compliment. I feel like I should. It looks super cozy. It's very cozy. It feels like like candy corn. I don't know. I don't like candy corn, but I'm like this reminds me of candy corn. It's better than candy corn cuz I agree. C I think candy corn is kind of gross personally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I hate about that. Okay. I know. The candy corn truthers. Yeah. Oh, you have a nice glass. Oh, so do you. Cheers. So, we're drinking wine today. We both chose red. Yes, it's pino noir. I don't know that much about wine. Neither do I. Um, mine's um Cabernet, which I'm not sure what exactly that means, but it was um a recommended one under $20, and it said it had like fruity and vanilla notes, both of which sound tasty. So, amazing. Yeah. Yours looks like Yours looks like a meal. It's nice and thick. Yeah. Yeah, it is pretty thick. It's like a very bold flavor. Yeah. Someday we'll go to France and the someone will teach us about wine. Uh, yes, please. And cheese. Yes. Yeah, I know. We should have brought We should have had cheese plate with this. Oh my gosh. Okay, we'll do a We'll do a another time. That would be a snack episode. Um, amazing. Yes, I do love red wine, but I don't know a lot about it. I just drink what people bring me. That seems like a good policy. Honestly, people who probably know more about wine than I do, I'm like, "Yeah, just, you know, whatever you recommend." 100%. Yes. Okay. What are we talking about today? What are Okay, today we are talking about toxic positivity in coaching, which was um a listener request. and also is like a brilliant topic because I have thoughts and feelings about it as I'm sure you do. I think our thoughts and feelings might be the same. Probably. Yes. Okay. I think it might be interesting to start off with first like what what do you view as toxic positivity? What does that mean to us? And then we can like dig in from there. Yeah. Um, it's interesting because when I think about like
toxic is like positivity, toxic positivity to me is like positivity that actually does more harm than good. M like it's actually harmful because it's maybe denying the nuance of a situation and opting for like happy thoughts, right? Or or or like totally ignoring the problem and only looking at like the one or two quote unquote good things what what do you think about toxic positivity? Yeah, I agree with that. I think like denying or like suppressing the feelings. So it's like I think that's what makes it toxic is what when it's like reinforcing a narrative that there's something wrong or bad about the negative feelings. And so it's like putting a band-aid on top of them because we're human and we experience a full range of emotions. And it's like signaling to the client or to whoever is like the recipient of the toxic positivity that what they're feeling there's something wrong or harmful or shameful about it. Yeah. Um and it's interesting because I'm like, you know, I think the world at large is not that positive. So, I think sometimes as a reaction to how I don't even love the word like positive or negative because I'm just like I'm like there's there's people who and and brains human brains often will always find a problem. So I think kind of as a reactionary thing to there's always a problem. It's always an issue like to like quote unquote negative people. Toxic positivity comes up because it's like it can be like a protection against all of the negativity that most of us are feeling bombarded by all the time. So, I also think like I I get why it happens. Like it's sometimes just such a pro protective um reactive barrier from having to look at the harder stuff or sometimes just the overblown negativity that the world can throw our way. I like that. I hadn't really thought of it in that way. It's like you're unshaming even toxic positivity like that has a reason. And I do agree. I think the source of it in coaches and probably in humans in general is like a discomfort. Probably a shaming of quote unquote negative emotions in the person themselves. Like they have not had a safe space to acknowledge and process their own feelings. maybe. Um, and so then that's like projected out into the world and there's not much capacity to hold space for other people's negative emotions. Yeah. Or like if you grew up in a place where having negative emotions was was shamed or it was dangerous, like if you had a parent that like couldn't handle negativity, then it was like, "Oh, I've got to always be positive and look on the bright side and happy, happy, happy, and that's how I get love." an affirmation, then I think it makes a lot of sense. And I will just say as a coach, I have had clients that present with only positivity in a way that it's sometimes hard to get below the surface and find out what's really going on. Yeah. what we're calling toxic positivity and I'm just kind of dancing around but I'm like that it's it is I think it's harder to coach someone who is in that very protected mind space than someone who maybe show than a client that shows up and like vents everything they're thinking and feeling. So just for people out there who are like oh I wonder if my coach thinks I'm super negative. As a coach, I actually find it easier to get to the bottom of something with someone who maybe tends towards seeing the worst in people or the negative side. Like I actually find it easier. I'm like this is great because we can there's no you're I don't I'm not confused about what you're saying or feeling. Yes, 100%. Yeah, there is a sort of disconnect that I think happens as a byproduct of toxic positivity. I don't even like saying it that much. I don't know. I feel like we need more nuance to it. But there is, like you said, a protectiveness. But that protectiveness can be hard to like dig into what's actually real and what's happening. And with coaching, if if what our clients are sharing with us is very surface level, it's hard to actually create meaningful change in a person's life if they're not actually looking at what's like going on really and honestly. And conversely, um, as a coach, we want like I think we want to be mindful of what we're offering our clients and whether we're signaling to them consciously or unconsciously that like certain feelings are okay or not okay or we're uncomfortable with certain feelings. I think it's natural as a coach to like care about our clients and to struggle maybe if they're in pain. And I think it's part of our responsibility to take care of that so we are not signaling to them. Even if we're not saying like, "Oh, you got to feel better." Like there are ways in which we can signal to our clients that like this is a safe space for that. Like nothing's wrong with you. You can feel whatever you're feeling. You can be honest about whatever you're feeling. We'll work through it together. I think everything you just said is exactly what to say. Like just because I can hear the question that someone might be asking. It's like, "Okay, but how do I make it safe to do that? How do I make sure that I'm not reinforcing that this is the positive zone and we're only going to think in like very happy flowing thoughts?" Um, everything you just said is exactly what someone could say to create the beginning of safety for a client. So, thank you for that. Thank you. It's funny because I'm just when you're thinking about I'm like, how do I signal to someone? It's like when they really give me the full like dumpster fire of what they're feeling, this is not on purpose and maybe I should stop doing this, but I actually I'm just like, "Okay, this is great." Yeah. They're like, "Huh?" I'm like, "No, no, no. I don't mean I'm happy that you're sad. I don't mean I'm happy." I'm like, "But we have, you know, you're this the static alarm bell is going off now. We have something we can do. We can hear that wisdom. you know, we're not having to like dip our toes into like, yeah, maybe something is actually wrong here. It's like, okay, if it's all on fire, feels terrible. Now, we can investigate that and we can hear the wisdom in that and we can find out, you know, what support do you want? Like
because ultimately I don't think it's I you know I know that when I was a early on in my coaching days I'm like if I didn't help somebody and they didn't feel better by the end of a session then I failed. Yeah. And then I had some people come to sessions after horrific things had happened in their lives and I had to be like it would be so insulting and so selfish totally about me if I was like all right how are we going to how are we going to feel better today? How are we going to process this all nice and nice and tight and get over it? Yeah,
maybe my the shift I I'm thinking about this like the shift I think that happened in the coaching was just like every emotion has wisdom and every emotion has something to tell us even toxic posit positivity. Oh, that's so good. Yes. like you're being really cheery about this thing that sounds like I don't know it's it would be really hard for me to go through this. Is there do you think that that's is that feeling connected? How is that going for you? Not like digging for a problem, but just saying these two things don't compute to me. How are they for you? M and if there's an early career coach listening being like wa yes that is okay to say things like that and actually can be hugely in my experience beneficial to the coaching relationship to say I have said things like that where it's been that I've been like so you told me about this and like the way you're talking about it is very far from like what I would expect is there anything going on there like totally fine if not, but like raising the question because it shows the client we're listening, we're engaged, we're invested, and also they have space where they can dig if they want to and if they're open to it. Yeah. And I'm thinking too like about most of most of my clients at this point are like in leadership roles and they're in or they're like the CEO of their own business. And I think a lot of times they have trained themselves in the skill. It is a skill. It probably is still toxic positivity, but it's the skill of like spinning things in a way that make them more digestible so they don't freak out their team or that their, you know, their their staff doesn't get scared or worried. Like it's like I'm going to tell you the truth about this thing that's happening, but I'm really going to minimize just how much turmoil is happening inside of me. And I think that that has kind unfortunately that's like some situational appropriateness within a lot of corporate structure structures. I already can't talk. I the wine is really the corporate structures. The second going to be very interesting. But I just go totally non-verbal after three sips of wine. Um, but I think that there is kind of that corporate or leadership training that is there for a reason because you don't want to freak everybody out just because you're having an emotional reaction to something that might be a big problem. It might not be a big problem. But at the same time, I think to your point, like reinforcing that within this container, this is the place where they can drop the professional verbiage. They can say they don't have to like be careful about how they say. If they hate their coworker, they can just say, "I hate my coworker." Like, we're not going to judge them. They don't have to be diplomatic about it. and it's maybe the one space in their world where that is. So, so when I kind of hear the prof I I work with a lot of like doctors and like highlevel consultants and they are very precise with their words and I'm just like okay I feel like you're maybe talking to me like a colleague right now. No one else is here. We are not we are not recording. Mhm. Mh. If if it was just you talking to a friend, how would you describe what you're feeling? And sometimes that little bit of unlock, even though we're not their friends, just reminding them that like I'm the person in your corner for you. Yeah. I don't care who you hate. I don't care who you love. I don't care about any of that. I care about what that experience is like for you.
It's been really interesting. Yeah. I'm like, do I Yeah, I really don't prefer toxic positivity over just
real grittiness. It's definitely easier as a coach, I agree, to speak with a client who is a little bit less filtered. And I also want to say to your earlier point and to what you're describing of like, you know, people who maybe have more of a corporate background or have even if not professionally like they have grown up in such a way where it was not safe for them to emote openly. It can be challenging for them to be unfiltered in that way and with good reason. Like I think a lot of these coping mechanisms have developed and are actually quite brilliant and have worked brilliantly in the past. And so as coaches like I don't want to place and I don't think this is what you're doing but like we don't place necessarily a hierarchy on how our clients communicate. And for me the goal is always how do I make this space more safe? Yes. And so if I notice a client is like very very buttoned up around me that's a call for me to explore how am I contributing to this environment? Is there something we could be doing differently? Is there a fear we need to explore? Do they need to build a tool set so that they can actually discern, okay, here, I'm going to actually very consciously be real and then so they can trust that they have the capacity or the tools to then button themselves up when they need to in situations where it doesn't really feel safe to be unfiltered. Yeah, I think that is so that is so good because it puts the it puts the shift in the relationship mostly on the coach. And it's funny because I'm thinking like, okay, when have I noticed this happening with clients? It's really funny. It's when they like some clients will apologize the first time they swear in my presence. A I know. I'm like I'm just like a Did you think I would get offended if you said [ __ ] I was like, "Oh, well, you know, I was like, we can swear all the time. We can like I just kind of they're like, "Oh, I'm so sorry." I'm like, and I will usually just say it back to them and try to like ease them, normalize it because it's it is one of those things where maybe even to what we talked about last week, I think people don't always know. They're like, "Okay, my coach is like so present and they're holding this container and maybe it feels sacred to the person who's never been fully listened to before." Mhm. Sometimes there can be like a dynamic of like this is very precious and that can if if to if they didn't grow up in a space where they were free to express themselves sometimes that preciousness can feel like they also have to tread very lightly and filter some part of themselves. Yes. So, we've talked about it a little bit already, but like more explicitly, how do you contribute to a space where it does feel safe for the client to open up in that way? I try to say it from the first time I meet somebody. I try to say like, listen, in your professional life, I know you probably need to do this, this, and this. This is your space to let your hair down. say what you're really feeling. Say what you're really thinking. Um I just say that explicitly kind of like what you did. Um and I just say and I actually encourage it. If I feel like someone is tending towards more toxic positivity, I just say like not not to make a hierarchy out of it, but I say it's really it's easier for us to go further when you just tell me what's really going on for you. Like, yeah, you don't have to give me a beautiful coachy statement. You don't have to tell me that you know that it's just a thought or you know, or when someone will say like, "Oh, I know it's silly. I shouldn't feel like this. I know I should be kind and I should be gracious. I'm like, why? Why shouldn't you be kind and gracious? Just want to understand where that rule came from. Maybe we shouldn't maybe we should be petty. I love it. And it's it some it's like such a disruption for people sometimes that they're like, "Oh, if I actually allowed the petty voice to come up." very often we discover something that's really important can be very healing for people and I'm always thinking about like how can I how can I help my clients just stay whole like not kick a part of themselves out in the cold even the toxic negative parts or the toxic positive parts like whatever it is it's like how can we just keep them together. That's such a beautiful goal. That's such a beautiful framing. Yeah. And it's hard to not get attached to it also. Like what do you mean by that? I think it's hard to not make that kind of my I don't want that to be a goal, but I know that sometimes I have to kind of grapple with it because I'm like they're kicking themselves out and that's like wrong because that's not what I want for them. But it's like, "Oh, maybe we have to let that part be out today." You know, maybe that's where they're at. Mhm. And I can't force them to kumbaya with every facet of who they are today. Yeah. Because there's wisdom. I mean, this is getting a little bit abstract now, but there is wisdom in people rejecting certain parts of themselves as well. For me, I think that's that's where it helps me because I think I have never thought of it in that language before, but I think that is a an implicit goal of mine as well. Or maybe not goal, but that is like an orientation of mine. Um, and then I think when I notice that happening for me, it's a call to the relationship to like evaluate, okay, was I contributing to that? And right, if so, that's like fine. I'm not bad or wrong for it. And they're not bad or wrong for it. It's just something it's like an invitation to create more safety, I think. Yeah. So, when you notice somebody who is always coming, like maybe you have a client that's like, "No, everything is great. Everything's wonderful. I didn't get the I didn't get the the showcase I wanted, but you know, there's always next year. Totally fine." Mhm. How do you or do you try to open that up with them? That's such a good question. Um, and I love the reframing of the question as well because I think I I think I'm open about like like I allow my now I didn't always have this skill, but I allow myself to like if something feels off to me if they're like I'm totally fine and I know that they've been working toward this thing that they wanted and I would be devastated if I didn't get it. I might even like say like oh that you worked really hard toward that. How are you feeling about that? Is that something you would like to explore? But I never even I might be tempted to, but I try not to like push the client to dig into something that they're not interested in or ready to cuz that also I feel is that's not right. Yeah. And I think that that sometimes is maybe where people preemptively turn on the toxic positivity. It's like a good way to go there. I don't want to go there, so I'm just going to say I'm fine. Yeah. Like, how many times have I done that in a personal relationship where I'm like, I'm going to tell you everything is fine because I'm not willing to go to the place that I will go to if I start talking about this. Like that's not going to be constructive. Um yeah, I think it is like it's an interesting one because even with our clients where like we are there to support them with whatever they need sometimes it just doesn't feel safe or they don't feel ready to go into something that they're not sure how they feel about it. So it's easier to just say I'm fine. I'm good. I don't need to go there. Yeah. Yeah. And I might literally say something like um it's I might like offer it seems like you don't necessarily want to talk about this. Tell me if I'm off on that or misunderstanding that. Or I might say something like um if you want to explore this more. We can totally create space and if you need anything in order to go there like we can talk about what that might be. And it's also okay if you want to talk about something else. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's Oh, this is so good because Yeah. It's so easy to think, "No, if they're saying they don't want to talk about it, it's toxic positivity. We've got to dig in there. That's our job." But it's like, no, our job is to actually dig where they want to dig or build what they want to build. Yep. The sessions are being paid for by the client and therefore we we work on the ground that they are interested in. Yes. And a also to be very clear about this for everyone listening like a client not wanting to dig into something that is painful or traumatic that does not equal toxic positivity necessarily. That's them being like an autonomous human being who gets to choose when and why and what they want to work on. That's like not for us to decide. It's good to have like, you know, be in tune with ourselves and have a learn bells if we feel like a client there's like a mismatch between what a client is saying and how they're presenting that we can offer them as like here's something I notice, but the client is an expert on themselves. They get to direct where the conversation goes. That's not my business. Yeah. I will name if they've like stated before they want to dig into things that then they're avoiding because that's there's a disconnect there and we can talk about it. But like the client is not wrong at all for that. And also like I wouldn't necessarily label that as toxic positivity. Yeah. Yeah. I had a client who we worked together weekly for a full year before she was open to doing any deeper processing. Mhm. And I sort of got that impression from her very early on and I was just like, we'll do mindset coaching. I don't need to process emotions with her. She's not She's told me why that's not something she wants to do. I'm not going to go there. And then a year in I said we can let's let's talk about this thing that you brought up and I want to offer that we could also explore it through processing if that's something you feel comfortable with. And at that point she was like yeah I feel like we've talked all around this and the only way I'm going to figure it out is if I feel it feel through it. But it was like her direction, my offering, her direction. And it was like a it was a very memorable experience for her. But it was like it took us that whole year of building trust, working through other modalities within coaching to come to a place where that felt appropriate to what she needed in that moment. Mhm.
and toxic positivity was probably a
an adaptation for that particular person at the time. Yeah. Until it wasn't and then you know it was exactly but it was like I was not like woo finally we can finally do the good stuff and the good coaching like it was like this was all just happening on a continuum and this happened to be the tool for this moment. Mhm. And that whole time you were creating safety together in your relationship where that she felt like she this is something that she, you know, wanted to do with you. Yeah. And she was doing inc I mean she was doing incredible things. She was like one of the most motivated clients. We would talk about something and the next week she would come and she'd be like, "Okay, I tried it. Here's my reflection." D. I was just like, you know, your your positivity, not the toxic kind, but like her motivation and positivity, she did amazing things. She did not let her doubt stop her or her fear stop her. She was just like, I'm feeling it. It's okay. I know why it's there. It's in the unknown, but I've just got to do this. Like, she was just so connected to her vision. And it was like, wow, positivity is great and there may be some areas where that's not letting her go deeper, but like she didn't need to go deeper at that point. Yeah. Yeah. I love what you said about the hierarchy of depth, too. Just like it was so easy as coaches to be like, "Ooh, this is like the good juicy kind of coaching, and this is like the surface level, not not as important, not as good." I'm like, "Thank you for saying that." It's an important reminder and I have to remind myself of that as well. Um because I think I think we know each other well enough. I think we both like favor depth in conversations and relationships, but I think there's like it's kind of like I don't think we need to have a hierarchy of the type of work that our clients are willing to do. And even like I was realizing as you were talking about this client I I like the label toxic positivity as like a social like describing a social phenomenon uh where like culturally maybe there's a hostility to negative quote unquote negative emotions or like a discomfort with negative emotions and there's like sort of painting over them with like positivity. Mhm. But talking about individuals, I feel like it actually like glosses over Yeah. something much more interesting and like more honest about like I think it is what we often describe as toxic positivity is totally an adaptation to situations where it was like probably very necessary and felt very necessary and I don't know that the solution to that is like shaming that in any way because it is a beautiful adaptation for a lot of people even if it has some harmful side effects the way to dig into that is as you demonstrated with this client to like create more safety, more openness, more possibility, and let the client lead. Mhm.
