Let's go. I don't feel really threatened by that. To me, that's actually kind of exciting. Yeah. Because there's like so much possibility in that. It is exciting. Like I I think the only time people are scared of those questions is, you know, if they're uncomfortable because they don't have answers, right? And I think that's the beauty of of coaching. If you can coach around this stuff in a clean way, making room for someone to just have questions, I actually think that that is, you know, if we were going to differentiate between spirituality and religion, like religion, I think for many in many traditions like really tries to answer as many questions as possible and spirituality is like I think more about the question. So, I kind of use them interchangeably. I'm like, yeah, I like follow some some celebrations. I go through the wheel of the year and like do all the nature stuff, which is really fun and really deeply meaningful. But within that, there's always room for questioning. And there's and it's a questioning that doesn't have to have a concrete correct answer. It actually doesn't matter if we know the correct answer. And I that I that is kind of like coaching to me. Like I'm like, we don't actually know the correct answer. Very convinced and have a lot of conviction, but we're not going to know until we try something. We're not going to know at a spiritual level. We don't know what happens after we die. Nobody knows. We can have lots of ideas about it, lots of hopes, but like I can't answer that question for sure right now. Yeah. I think that is such a an incredible gift to bring like that perspective is is an incredible gift to bring into a coaching relationship because there's like I do think people generally are very uncomfortable with not knowing. We develop a lot of stuff so that we like can live under the illusion that we know a lot of stuff that we don't actually know. And a lot of people repeat habitual patterns that are like in some ways quite harmful to them to avoid the stuff that comes up from like the unknown. So being able to create a space where questioning is welcome and it's okay not to know and also like you can develop a plan around finding out if you want to. Um but a pl like finding out the process of finding out involved a lot of not knowing along the way. um creating like safety around that and a sense of security and exploring like how to how to build a sense of security within that is really powerful. Yeah, I think that's true. I think it's also really powerful to choose what you want to believe because you like it. Like there's it sounds kind of silly, but I say this to people all the time. I'm like, you know, because we don't actually know with 100% accuracy, anything really. Um, you get to choose what what you want to believe just because it makes you happy to believe it. Like I can believe in spirit guides. I don't know if they're real, but it makes me feel really supported to choose to believe that. I don't need to be right about it. I don't really argue with anybody about it. just like that's a beautiful thing for me to believe. So, I really like it. I'm gonna choose that one. For me, it's it's a really fun exploration to do with people. I mean, this is what we're doing all the time. I again, I don't want to offend anybody who does not share my beliefs. Offend now. But I mean, sometimes people will say coaching is not magic. And I'm like, actually, 100% it is. You're literally thinking something into being. You're taking an idea. You have a lantern. You want to light and you're deciding to work on it like it is inevitable. You're working on it like it's going to happen and then it does happen. And it would never have happened if you hadn't put that effort behind it and opened yourself to the possibilities of it happening. Like if you hadn't tuned your mind and then backed it up with your effort, our businesses wouldn't exist. They are magic. We're pulling from a true witch. So this everybody witchcraft. I'm sorry or magical practitioner. You can be a magical practitioner if that word doesn't resonate, but like we are literally weaving things into being. And I think that that is a it's like a miracle of human existence that we can dream something up and then create it tangibly in the world. That's so beautiful. I love that. I think I think the word that I use for that is creativity to be honest. Yes. But it's like the exact same thing. At least from what you described, it's the same thing. I mean, I think I used to um I my ex actually was a Lutheran pastor, which was a very interesting pairing. Um but he was also like he was very um into like he was very open-minded, like very creative. Um, but I used to like talk to him about how like theater was like my religion and because it had that that experience of like creating something from nothing and also in a communal sense like the idea of working together and building relationships to build something from nothing. So yeah, I'm 100% with you. And I think that's what attracted me to coaching as well is this idea that you can change things and like it might take a lot of support or a lot of work to do, but it's totally doable. And like here's a space where we can break that down and talk about it in great detail and like build support as much as is needed to make that happen. Yeah. because and I mean people I don't think people really understand always the value of that type of mindset work and that questioning but it's like the the fixed beliefs like people can't change or the fixed beliefs like I'm not capable of doing this. We don't realize that those are not just like things that are true. They are beliefs that probably benefit somebody else for us to believe and we will make them true with how we show up in the world if we keep repeating them and keep thinking them and keep choosing them. So I think that you know one of the most magical a after kind of leaving that spiritual community after that spiritual community fell apart coaching was was kind of the thing that brought me back actually to spiritual work because I was like this is 100% me choosing the beliefs. I can either keep choosing the default beliefs that I've thought that really are not taking me where I want to go or I can be a more intentional and start lining up my life with what I want. Start thinking the way that I want to think about myself and change my self-worth and like all the kind of inner work that had to happen. So I yeah I mean I think if you're a spiritual person, if you're a religious person, I don't know that there can be 100% a separation between that and who you are as a coach because your spiritual experiences are going to inform your coaching. But to your point, it's when there's like I think it when it's a problem is like when there's an agenda about what your client should believe or what they should practice. Yeah. Right. That's not coming from the client themselves. Yeah. It's like what you think you're supposed to do because of what the religion says or you know where how you think they would be happier if they shared beliefs. I wish I'm like I wish I could make people believe what I believe because I'm so much happier. But that would be too much work for most people. Yeah. And I think my spicy comment about that form of coaching is I think that's like coercion. I don't think that's coaching. Like that's manipulation. Yeah. Yeah. And in a like that listen I understand like it's not always conscious. I understand we're human, but like that's actually kind of sickening if you're doing it consciously and you're not like doing anything to address that behavior. If you're imposing your beliefs on someone else without like making that explicit and without explicit consent from the person that you're coaching. Yeah. Unless they say I want to do this coaching in the context of the religion and right be better at be a better practitioner of this faith or this spiritual path. That's one thing. I think yeah I think it I think it's totally unethical to as you said like if you have your your your professional hat on it's unethical to like bring in what you do when you're not at work whatever that is right in a way that's like kind of imposing that and not just like trying to inform or connect or help the client like support the client's growth in whatever direction they're wanting to grow in. I also just think like I don't know, maybe this is my overthinking, but like I also am wary of even if you like say you're the same religion as someone or if you're both, like that might mean different things to you than it does to your client. So, I think that's not enough just to be open about it. if you are going to then bring that into your coaching sessions as like a direction that you're kind of leading the client toward because yeah like they might interpret certain things in the religion differently than you or they might um feel differently about certain aspects of the religion than you. Yep. Yeah. It's a I think Yeah. I think it's like on a not a need to know basis, but it's kind of like how is this for them? Like I think that that's always the question. It's like how is this helping them? You know, I have definitely shared religious like my religious my relig I' I've told people like yeah I'm I practice witchcraft. I practice you know I follow the seasons and the moon and all that stuff. um not as a hey I'm just like you but as a I don't know that much about what you're talking about and you're really safe to explore this with me because I don't have preconceived notions about what is right and wrong for you and that has been for the people I've shared that with in a coaching container that has been a huge relief to be like oh they're not going to judge me or tell me I should go to church on Sunday when I'm questioning what I want to do here. Yeah. I think Oh, yes. I think I feel so protective of the coaching container as a space where clients feel safe to question and so like anything that is interrupting that which is like allowing the clients to feel unseen or just like kind of pushing them in a direction is like I don't like it. Yeah. Yeah. When people in hush tones are like, I really like human design and astrology. I'm like, tell me all your things. Give me your chart. I can read it. I amazing.
And I'll be like, tell me all the things because I have no idea. I've had people explain this to me many times and I still always forget the different astrological signs and what they mean. Yeah. I, you know, it's funny. I'm like not this is what I mean like it's it's always so different. I'm not like I'm really not into a lot of more newagy stuff which is so funny to say. I'm like I know enough about astrology because of the spiritual archetypes that we particularly use. But like right I'm like I know Mercury's in retrograde right now but it's not going to ruin my life. Like some people are very freaked out. They will not do anything. I'm like, "Eh, doesn't totally work like that." Yeah, we'll get very like I think attached to certain things. I'm like, "That doesn't seem helpful to me." So, we're not going to get attached to that. Um, so yeah, I probably don't know that much. I don't I don't I don't check the charts that often. Yeah. Yeah, I mean to your point earlier that's such a helpful framework from a coaching perspective at least is like is this helpful to me? That's a very helpful approach and I you know it's funny because I'm I'm thinking I'm like where did that come from? That actually came from my time as a Chinese medicine practitioner because I was I was working in this um I did an advanced course for a couple of years with this teacher who focused heavily on five element practice where everybody has a constitution and I noticed a lot of my classmates would get very they were like well you know I get angry because I'm a wood I'm a wood constitution and I'm like oh interesting excuse It's like, oh yeah, I've got to, you know, I've got to go lay down because this is depleted or that's depleted or this is my constitution. And I just watched how many people really like glombmed on to people glom onto their astrological stuff, their human design stuff, their constitution, and they use it as a totally as a crutch or as an excuse. Mhm. And one of my favorite things is like as as a as a witch or as a magical practitioner, it's our job to like use what's helpful, transmute the rest. Like we can turn that into something helpful or else just ignore. I just ignore it. Yeah. Not going to let the Mercury retrograde stop me. How how would you approach like if a person if you had a client in a session who were was like this is actually my spiritual practice. this is my belief system to and I identify very strongly with this astrological sign and all of the implications of it. And you can see as a coach from your perspective of like questioning everything that that is um clearly like reinforcing some patterns that maybe they've been working to change. How would you approach that? Okay. So, I would probably try to use their information to support them and I'd say, "Okay, well, that's your sun sign, but what about your rising sign? What about your moon sign? What about the complexities of who you are?" Because just because you're a Scorpio does not make you this type of person. Like that would mean every Scorpio is the same. Not. We like to blame them for certain traits, but I think that a lot of times because we are human and because and you obviously know this really well, we work with clients and our brains are tuned to look for the trouble, look for the problem, look for what's wrong. Um, I always encourage people to say like, "Oh, what do you know the strengths of those things?" Even with a diagnosis, this again kind of comes from Chinese medicine. People get very attached to their diagnosis whether it was from their western doctor, whether it's their Chinese medicine diagnosis. We always kind of look at like those things are just interruptions in the energy circuit. And when I had chronic pain was one of the worst times of my life. It was nine months of faking hell. But after that, there was a gift from that experience where I will never burn out ever again. I cannot imagine a time where I would diminish my own needs the way that I did to get to that point. There was a gift. So I always think about like what's the superpower within this thing you're telling me is a problem. It's like what is the what is the static that you're experiencing trying to tell you? Um, I have a client who was just diagnosed with ADHD and I've been calling it her superpower for the last two months because it really is. I'm like, now that we know this, we can totally change the way you're working and she's now calling it her superpower because there is not everything is negative. It's like really what we choose to glom on to. Mhm. And I think that's our job as coaches is not to like paint it all pretty, but to say what does this what does this what is the opportunity in this?
I'm not picking on Scorpios. My son's a Scorpio.
We'll get some angry Scorpio hate mail from this. I hope we haven't got my hate mail yet. So, it's about time. my little emotional watery fiery guy.
I love it. Thank you for that. Yeah. And I mean that I think the great thing too is if like someone came to you with that, then you could just be like, I have no idea what that means. I think that there's a benefit to that too of saying, I have no idea what that means. Why do you think that's a problem? Yeah. And I could like acknowledge it like if they seem kind of attached to a certain interpretation of it, I might even just like say that and go like what's that about? Is that like a fixed thing? Is there a range in your belief system around this? Like what's going on there? Yeah. And dig in a little bit to that because I do think a lot of times people cling to certain identities because there's like a fear. there's like some judgment there underneath that's like I don't know like maybe I am too much of X Y and Z but this gives me a reason to like not beat myself up for it. It gives me like an outside explanation but like airing that and giving space for that and helping people see they don't actually have to judge themselves for any of it can be it can like make the attachment to the identity dissolve on its own. Yeah. And we I I mean it it is easier for our brains to like reduce us all down to like the our types, our personality traits, our horoscope, like our astrological sign, like whatever the ways that we kind of we and the world will pigeon hole us, but like that's the kind of the fun part of coaching is we get to open that up with people and say, "What do you think it means that you're a Scorpio?" Yeah. Tell me everything. Is that every Scorpio or is that just every Scorpio like that? Every single one. Wow. How many Scorpios are there in the world? How many Scorpios do I know who's like this?
Oh yeah, it's so interesting. Thank you so much for this conversation over tea. How was your tea? It was wonderful. This is very like a very nice sort of interesting, deep, relaxing chat. I loved it a lot. How was your tea? It was really good. I I'm I'm really hoping I can stay awake past 8 o'clock tonight. So, I'm doing my best. That daylight savings has really Oh, yeah. has really hit me. And uh I'm hoping a little boost of caffeine. Maybe I'll make it to 10:00. Yeah. I hope for you. I believe in you. You can do it. You're taking your kids somewhere or what? Yeah, they have they do their theater tonight. So, we're doing some theater tonight. And um then my My little Scorpio turns eight on Friday. And we're making we're having a dinner party. How cute. Making homemade pasta, inviting a couple of his friends over and their parents. Yeah, that sounds extremely wholesome. It's Yeah, but also like a lot of work. It's like maybe I should have just let them eat popcorn and had a movie night, but whatever. He likes to cook. Are they supporting pasta? Okay. Are they excited about the pasta making? Like does that come from them? Yeah. Yeah. He likes to He He was like, "I want to make homemade pasta with the pasta machine drinking it." Wow. I'll take it. He's going to be a good partner for somebody someday. Sure is. Sure is. They're gonna thank you for I will make
awesome. Well, I believe in you. You Thank you. Thanks so much for everything. And I hope that everybody listening enjoyed our wide- ranging conversation today. Yeah. Yeah. And if you have experience, like if you are a spiritual coach, if you bring that into your niche, like I would love to hear from you. I'd be very interested in um exp like learning more about how someone who actually puts this into practice like navigates the issues that we've been raising or maybe they're not issues at all for you like maybe yeah maybe you're so maybe your marketing is just so clean that you never have these issues you're just yeah the people who completely vibe with what you're doing I would love to hear from you. Yeah. All right. Thanks everyone for listening everybody. Take care.
